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Joined: 6/19/2001
Posts: 5468
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 10:55:00 AM
Snegurochka you are saying:

“progress on individual moral level, because in my view, there is no growth in overall societal morality and there is not likely to be one.”

History shows that there is progress on individual’s moral level and society as a whole (combinatory of individuals). For example there are no more gladiator fights, and wearing fur coats is more looked down upon.

You say:

“Our failed experiments with communism suggest that it is not the case because we are not perfect and we won’t be perfect because, as Hamlet has put it, “perfection freezes progress”

Communism advocated equality and “sameness”. I, on the other hand, believe in hierarchy and syncarchy (opposite of anarchy). Meaning the various organisms exist on a different level of evolution, we are not the same.

“In the future in more evolved state of society evolution would be less driven by egoistic (fight or flight) feeling, but desire for happiness for all” If you do believe it, you (along with socialists and liberals exemplified by Toronto Star’s columnists ;-) believe in social reengineering or an idea that given all the right circumstances people will achieve ultimate perfection.”

The “paradox” is that we are always perfect, any moment in time, but we never stop evolving.

I do believe that the Illusory idea of separation what drives evolution, however accentuation of ego creates more struggles than necessary. With time, over the period of synthesis present state of evolution will reach its oneness one more time and a new spiral of evolution will begin.

As I noted in the previous post, I do not eliminate the idea of struggles driving evolution. Hamlet love the idea of paradoxes…I call the same idea antinomy, the truth is always in antinomy which creates those struggles……the secret is in creative coordination between the two opposites. (Eg. Church and government, east and west, men and women)
Joined: 9/2/2002
Posts: 56
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 11:56:00 AM
Malysh, let me summarize what I think to be our points of accord and disagreement. Essentially, I also believe as you very well put it “in hierarchy and syncarchy (opposite of anarchy). Meaning the various organisms exist on a different level of evolution, we are not the same” I do support the concept of individual evolution (let me use Hamlet’s concept of “evolution” since it is more familiar than “antinomy”) morally, intellectually, physically at any given stage in time. Where our disagreement may come into play is the concept of societal evolution. It may seem that I am contradicting myself since I do say that there is individual evolution and society is a combination of individuals, yet I do not think there is a moral societal progress. However, these two ideas are not contradictory because the composition of individuals in any given society changes over time.
You are saying that “History shows that there is progress on individual’s moral level and society as a whole (combinatory of individuals). For example there are no more gladiator fights, and wearing fur coats is more looked down upon.” First of all, fur coats are still “a la mode”, especially in Europe and although there are no more gladiator fights (although the popularity of “Gladiator” and related Hollywood style violent film does show our persistent appetite for violence) worse atrocities that are happening in the world (not just our minority Western society)are not on the decline. You do not have to go far for examples, Holocaust, despicable crimes during the war in former Yugoslavia, Chechnya, vicious kidnapping in Columbia, mutilations and torture in civil wars in subsaharrian Africa, “morality” of Muslim states! History shows that there is progress on society as a whole? Unfortunately wishful thinking does not mean history.
Communism advocates not only equality and sameness, some underlying ideas embraced by communism is social reengineering , a humanism approach of Maslow, an idea that we inherently good, perfect and that it is unequal society that causes us to be evil or what you are saying “The “paradox” is that we are always perfect, any moment in time, but we never stop evolving.” Can you please explain it to me? What gives foundation to your thinking that we are always perfect and that human beings are inherently good? (would you please not use esoteric terms since I am not familiar with those ;-)

Joined: 6/19/2001
Posts: 5468
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 12:59:00 PM
Sengurochka, in trying to omit esoteric terms, our society is still a combination (and more) of individual consciousnesses. I would not argue that are world still manifests somewhat animalist qualities, but certain changes are obvious. For example, creation of UN after WWII. Esotericism teaches that in the phenomenal world of “many” (the world we see around us, world of humans, societies etc) the more individualized we become and our communities, the bigger the clash between various structures. For example, imagine a primitive clan of people, if they would fight for food or property, maximum they could do is destroy each other. In our days, “clans” are bigger (society/country/religion) and when they fight for “who is better or stronger etc.”, the damage they bring is much bigger as well, coupled with progress in technology, end of the world may not be far away. In the world of today we still see many grandiose acts of compassion and acts of violence. However, the more conscious we become of the nominal unity of all (the idea behind creation), the tighter we will become. For example, I can totally see humanity uniting together if other civilizations will show up to threaten humanity. Can you imagine all humans against violent aliens?…Until the next phase of intergalactic war and finally peace etc.

Society is yet another organism and we are part of it. Society is an analogy of our own organisms and our cells.

As for “our innate perfection”, it is like a Father looking at a growing up son. We are evolving, but we are still wonderful at each grade we are in. Just like we don’t expect a first grader to solve ten’s grader math problems, so do we are wonderful even in our infantile stage of development.

I will continue later on…gotta go:) Btw, the sun engrossed Libra, somebody is having a birthday soon:)
Joined: 9/2/2002
Posts: 56
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 1:58:00 PM
Great examples and thank you for using the “laymen language” ;-) Let me see if I understand it correctly: According to esotericism stronger individualization leads to greater conflits while greater consciousness of unity leads to nominal unity and consequently progress? If this is your thesis than there is a certain contradiction: You believe that there has been a moral progress in society but at the same time you can not argue with the fact that we have become more individualized and isolated in terms of communities, structures, etc (as exemplified by a growing gap between world rich and poor, growth of sects, urbanization, clash of civilizations between Muslim and Western worlds) . Thus, according to esoteric’s first premise (stronger individualization leads to greater conflits) there is no moral progress in our society. One of my interests is precisely geo-politics, institutions like UN, EU, NAFTO, etc. and I can tell you that usefulness of UN has been extensively questioned. Why do I believe that there is no progress in morality of the overall society? Morals of any particular society are reflected by its art, literature, media (if it exists) and simple behavior of its members. If you are interested in western literature and art, many experts can tell you that there has been a decline in the quality of literature and art as it can not keep pace with developing technology. As for the third world countries, there are still extreme cruelties commited there and are often supported and reinforced by the governments (i.e. gang rape of a young girl in Pakistan Muslim state which was ordered by a village state counsel, ). Women are still burned alive in India, children tortured in Somalia, etc. Progress?
I understood the example with innate perfection. What scares me about it is that it can be used to explain the most horrible behavior by “ He has murdered millions, but he is still perfect because he is still in his very basic development stage”.
P.S. When is your birthday, mysterious Scorpio ;-)? November 20th?
And an unrelated question- is Libra compatible with Scorpio?
Joined: 6/19/2001
Posts: 5468
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 2:21:00 PM
Snegurochka, you raise very valid points...I need some time to think about it, if you may.

As for Scorpio/Libra connection, if Hamlet would not mind me diverging somewhat from the theme of the topic, then astrologically it is not ideal connection. However, our astrological makeup is much greater than just sun signs. Usually compatible sun signs (like libra/gemini or pisces/scorpio) are better for friendship than romance.

Scorpio is water, Libra is air. Both signs are relationship driven, Libra seeks unity and connection with a partner, Scorpio merges on an almost mystical level.

Libra with Scorpio
You are so very different that you are bound to be fascinated by each other. Airy Libra loves order, clarity, civilised behaviour, and harmony in all encounters. Watery Scorpio loves intense feeling, soulful confrontation, drama, mystery, and the occasional crisis or heated confrontation to feel inspired.
Libra can help Scorpio to discover perspective, balance, detachment, and gentleness. Scorpio can help Libra to discover emotional honesty, the hidden side of human nature, the pleasure of a good battle won, and the joys of passion.
But Libra can find Scorpio's emotional intensity disturbing or even threatening, and can feel bullied by the aggression Scorpio can display in the face of frustration. Scorpio can find Libra's careful ethics superficial or evasive, and can feel rejected by Libra's insistence on detached discussion.
Both of you need to listen to each other and appreciate each other's strengths. Libra needs to jump in and learn to fight openly. Scorpio needs to jump out and learn to think coolly. Both of you place enormous importance on relationships, and in many ways your relationship can make you both grow and flourish - provided you avoid polarising.

I am only learning to know my Libra man, but from my experience I can say that as long as you learn as much as you can about each other, respect and accept each other and compassionately care for each other you can overcome any obstacles. My parent's friends are Libra/Scorpio couple and they seem to be fine together, a little compatitive, talkative but loving at the same time. I think that Libra female, Scorpio male is even a greater connection. Your Scorpio man is probably more possessive than you are and would want nothing less but a complete loyalty and trust from you.
The Scorpio man
Let's strip away the glamour and the smokescreens and see what's underneath. The emotional needs of the Scorpio man are utterly human: affection, acceptance, reassurance, intimacy, love, companionship. In large quantities. Scorpio men cannot bear coldness or falseness in a partner. That mask of detachment is a mask. Remember that. No Scorpio man will advertise the fact that he's hurt or feeling neglected. You have to train as a telepath.

The Scorpio man is embarrassed by the presence of so much strong emotion in himself. That's when he becomes the hard-driving, ruthless, ambitious Scorpio of the textbook descriptions. But think of what it took to get him that way. Can you ever get a Scorpio man to let down his defences? Maybe. Maybe not. In the end, it isn't up to you. It rests with the Scorpio himself.

This isn't an easy man to live with. For one thing, you won't get straight answers if you ask pertinent questions like, "Do you love me?" On the other hand, you'll get brutal scrapings of the bottom of the barrel when you least want it - like a vicious hour-long analysis of your motives in flirting with So-and-so at the party, and why it stems from your sexual inadequacies and your rejection by your parents. If you thought you had secrets from him, think again.

The Scorpio man can cut deep if he wants to, and his need to retaliate can take precedence over tolerance and compassion. He can be very destructive when he's hitting back at you for some hurt you've inf
Joined: 9/23/2002
Posts: 7
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 2:36:00 PM
Libra is compatible with Aries and Leo...
Do u really believe in ?
Joined: 3/5/2002
Posts: 19784
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 2:38:00 PM
Ребятки у вас все в порядке? :))
И не лень это всё печатать?
Собрались бы лучше вечерком и подискуссировали. :))

Joined: 5/3/2001
Posts: 808
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 3:21:00 PM
Sa kakie babki ti bi soglasilsya viychit ves etot topic na pamyat ?
Joined: 9/15/2001
Posts: 9681
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 5:16:00 PM
МТВО, а мне кажется это не они уже пишут. Это наглый копи\пейст, пользуясь тем что 99.9% процентов заходит в этот топик не читать эти посты а а удостоверится что на форуме возможен такой понос.

Но у тебя хороший вопрос, я бы сказал штук 300 было бы как раз, чтоб потом сразу на реабилитацию.

Вообще-то, бродя по инету, я нашёл такой вот рассказик, очень как мне показалось к этому топику подходящий.

"С рекламного плаката, с доброй, всепонимающей и всепрощающей улыбкой, смотрит доктор Маршак. Недалеко от него, где-то пару шагов от стены, стоит молодой человек, и пялиться в серые, немного печальные, глаза профессионального психотерапевта. Молодой человек одет во все черное, потрепанная кожаная куртка, джинсы, явно повидавшие виды высокие ботинки. От него доноситься легкий запах пота, сигаретного дыма, и застарелой блевотины. На неровно выбритой голове шрамы былых побед и поражений, а обросшее лицо ярко отображает целый спектр эмоций, проносящихся через его разхлюпанный, прожженный мозг. Все, начиная от зависти, уважения, и лютой ненависти, поочередно перекашивают его рожу. Вдруг глаза его мечтательно закатываются назад, на лицо наплывает блаженная, туповатая улыбка.
«Доктор, почему ты не вылечил меня? Почему ты не помог моим друзьям? Ты же доктор...»
« Да пшел ты нахуй, ничтожество. Почему это вдруг кто-то должен был тебе помогать? Сам проебал свою блядскую жизнь, теперь других в этом винишь». "

Edited by - Северный on 9/23/2002 5:41:31 PM
Joined: 10/16/2001
Posts: 2532
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 5:45:00 PM
Guys first of all nothing is copied and pasted, I can guarantee you. Malush can you confirm, please ?

Скажите, а вам слабо поучаствовать, Северный ? Толстый ? . Флай в разговоре так хорошо сформулировать, часто не получается, к тому же много отвлекающих моментов типа пола собеседника итд :)

Снегурочка спасибо огромное за участие. Я отвечу чуть позже. Твое появление вносит определенную ясность в нашу дискуссию, это хорошо, что твои знания в эзотерике не так обширны, следовательно ты будешь критически подходить ко всему написанному. Мне очень хорошо знакомо, то что пишет Малыш и это все я бы сказал fueled by an emotion of love or more preciesely by love of the idea of love :) Me on the opposite pure, detached, cold, a bit angry and tired male intellect. And you I would say a perfect harmony of phenomenal superior between most females intellect and female emotion. Thats unbeatable union in our devine task of searching for truth in front of a little bit confused and irritated rest of torontovka. You have filled an empty spot :) and for that I humbly thank thou.

Edited by - Hamlet on 9/23/2002 5:58:43 PM
Joined: 6/19/2001
Posts: 5468
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 5:50:00 PM
Confirmation: Except my last post where I isolate the description of a Libra/Scorpio relationship and Scorpio male by lines, everything else was coming from me (or through me....does not matter).
Joined: 7/20/2002
Posts: 8934
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 5:55:00 PM
Severnyi, eto ne s vint-kluba sluchaino? ;)
Joined: 9/15/2001
Posts: 9681
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 6:26:00 PM
Я, если честно, с пре-большим удовольствием взял бы МТВО и Флаюшку к себе, в команду ассенизаторов-добровольцев, дабы принять активное участие в этом топике, по приглашению Гамлета. Дело за малым, Ильюха, тебя в переводчики можно взять?
Переведи пожалуйста хотя бы последние посты Снегурочки, в том месте где она затрагивает военные конфликты Чечни, Югославии. Мне очень интересно понять что же это чудо университетских стен рассказывает про военные конфликты, и кого она судить по книгам которые писали точно такие же коврижки, которые не вылазят из стен университета побаиваясь того что на них случаем сиранёт ворона и заделает их подгузник.

Впрочем не надо, с словариком в руках я кое как разбираюсь в такой каше мыслей где больше всего написанного расчитано на то чтобы больше запутать "оппонента" чем выразить какую-то трезвую мысль. Слава Богу в реальном мире очень редко достётся возможность позволить себе такое пуританство, расчёт идёт по секундам, где каждая из них может принести смерть, жизнь, сострадание или радость. Развиватся надо не в общих мерах, обсуждая процесс эволиции а в индивидуальных, где есть ты, где есть твоя семья и есть твоя задача которую нужно выполнить. Сидеть и извращатся по поводу кала которое пахнет где-то на полях Швеции, по моему не столько не разумно, сколько ничтожно.

Нас мало, но мы в тельняшках.
Joined: 9/2/2002
Posts: 56
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 6:50:00 PM
Thank you Hamlet, you are very flattering but it is not exactly the truth. Do not see me for more than who I am.
Severny, I have not been cut and pasting anything. If you were to understand me better (once again, I am sorry for writing in English, Russian takes too much of the time which I do not have) you would see that what I write is a direct reply/questioning of what Malish or Hamlet are saying, it is too individualized to be cut and pasted.
As for the wars, of course I am in no position to judge any of them, I do not have enough information or/and knowledge to do it. I do have my opinions about them but they have not been expressed yet. I only said that there were and are wars in the world and used them as examples to illustrate the fact that people are not becoming better overall.
Also, although I do like reading, I am not at all in this dry academic mode you are despicing and what I previously studied in university has nothing to do with anything I've written.
Joined: 10/16/2001
Posts: 2532
Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 12:38:00 AM
Sorry for the delay with reply I was very busy making money so I can evolve later on :)

Snegurochka: you asking questions and then answering them exactly as I would :)
Yes evil does exist otherwise we wouldn't have the word. The role of evil is to oppose in this grand scheme of conflict creating evolution. Actually evil is the major driving force of evolution. Yes Malush paradox again :) I would not necessarily say "evil" may be the word "bad" is better. In our human language we use phrase - "consequences" of doing evil. I would you the word "reaction". For years I could not accept the concept in esoterics saying that if I did something bad I should be responsible for it. You may laugh because it seems so obvious. The porblem is that I always understood what most people fail to realize which is the fact that WE WERE INTENTIONALLY CREATED WITH ABILITY TO DO EVIL AND IT WAS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. I've never accepted the explanation of our suffering given in bible it never made sense to me. Universe is not making mistakes not even for a nano second. Our mistakes make sense only in very short context of our life may be even part of our life. Everybody do exactly what they supposed to do because all outcomes of all actions are known by the universe in advance and taken into account ! Regarding sociental evolution I do believe it is happenning but this is not always obvious. The world is clearely moving forward and more evolved people live much better life (US and Europe) because they made it through the struggle making right decisions. We paid with our blood for every single improvement that we have in this world. So since the world is moving forward, countries that left behind should change faster to keep up. This is why we see these fast changes in the form of wars and sometimes even as "moving backwards in history". Islam will be first religion to dissapear. On September 11 arabs basicaly asked all the world to participate in their transformation by speeding it up. Everybody unnecessary at the present stage of development will die. As simple as that.
Malush makes good point reagrding gladiator fights. The movie is so popular because it touched our core which is still wants blood inspite of all esoteric books ..... Yes we want love too, we are ready to die for love. But love is not the only emotion we are capable of .....
Malush please understand that there is nothing extra in this world. No even my overdeveloped ego as many people saying. (I especially liked when Oyama said to me: There is a lot of pseudo in you. It really makes me laugh (laugh at myself) which should be the sign of improving mental health :))
Whatever is not necessary will cease to exist or will be transformed. Actually you represent one of the forces which drive evolution. Your role in this life to keep my ego in check besides other far more important tasks like spreading ancient knoweledge on torontovka which is almost completely ignored of course :) I do realize the importance of humility for myself and I'm very grateful to you for finding the infromation back then. The information that I needed. I don't want to turn this discussion into discussion about myself again so eveybody please ignore this deviation from the more important.
Communism was based on very esoteric ideas and actually I don't think it failed. The experience of communism just ended for everybody participating. The capitalism in Russia will never be the same as in US for example and may be 70 years of socialism were needed just to produce this kind of capitalism. Which is needed in turn to balance something else and so on.
Snegurochka Malush with all due respect does not represent the sources of esoteric books (no offense please Malush). It is her understanding only and sometimes she is right and sometimes wrong again on my humble opinion. I do not recall reading that collective loving conciousness promotes evolution. Esoterics explain well the nature of this
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